List lenses by brand, not by mount

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ph.
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List lenses by brand, not by mount

Postby ph. » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:41 am

I just had a look at "ZeissIkon" under lenses; I presume that the intention is to differentiate the later ZIV from CZJ and CZ. However, the only lens listed is not a ZIV product, but a Soligor: is it actually labelled Zeiss -Voigtländer or does it just fit the ZIV Icarex?

Heaps of M42 optics will fit the Icarex TM, but should be listed under maker unless they -like some late CZJ lenses , the late Leica R optics and current Voigtländers & Zeiss´ are produced under licence and control of the original maker.

If the intention is to have a ZIV heading, some of those now listed under CZs , such as the TM Ultron should be moved there

p.

diser
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Re: List lenses by brand, not by mount

Postby diser » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:20 pm

Which one are you talking about (Soligor)?

Capture.JPG

ph.
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Re: List lenses by brand, not by mount

Postby ph. » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:08 am

There is a 135mm f2,8 "Tele Auto" with an Icarex bayonet mount under ZIV on the Collectibend lens list. As far as I understand , that is lens which will fit the ZIV-bm, but not a lens offered or produced by ZIV.

The 135 for the Icarex bm was the Super-Dynarex 135\4 catalogue number 11.2005. The wording of the ZIV list of the adapter 20.1635 is: "Adapter for T 2 lenses of other make with aperture preselection (e.g. Soligor)" as well as adapter 20.1661 for: "lenses of other make with preselection (i.e. Hanimex)". (In the list the plural "s" is missing from "makes")

When the ZIV camera production facilities were closed down in august 1971 several parties discussed taking over. There were apparently 7 lenses prepared by Zeiss for the "SL706" successor of the Icarex that mr. Weber of Dacora was supposed to build, but never materialized. Then Rollei took over; they sourced optics from CZ as well as from others.

In principle, optics made by other manufacturers but with the proper mount AND listed in the camera manufacturers catalogues (such as the Zeiss Hologon 15mm, the Angenieux -R zoom and the Minolta 800mmRF in the Leica catalogues), will be correctly listed under the name of the camera manufacturer (even if engraved by the lens-makers name ).

If a lens only fits some camera, but is NOT specifically listed in the makers catalogue as an option (and is obviously produced by an unconnected company), it should be listed under its maker.

I have not seen any samples of the "Tele Auto" that is listed in your lens list, but unless it is originally engraved Carl Zeiss or ZIV, it ought to be listed under its own label (Soligor?) and its place taken by the proper 135 for the Icarex, the Super-Dynarex. (The ZIV parts list for the BM variety also mentions the Super-Dynarex f.4\ 200mm and the Telomar f.5\ 400mm - as well as the Zoomar and the Zeiss 8x30B monocular and their attachment rings).

p.

ph.
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Re: List lenses by brand, not by mount

Postby ph. » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:36 pm

I just looked at the Kaludbek catalogue that lists a Soligor wide and this tele as made by Soligor, but until I see a Zeiss list, I maintain my objection.

p.

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Madd10
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Re: List lenses by brand, not by mount

Postby Madd10 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:10 am

I think that Diser's intention is indeed to list the lenses by brand not by mount,and that this lens http://collectiblend.com/Lenses/Zeiss-Ikon/135mm-f2.8-Tele-Auto-(Icarex-35,-BM).html Zeiss Ikon, 135mm (13.5cm) f2.8 Tele-Auto (Icarex 35, BM) needs to be reclassified as Soligor as it was produced by Soligor.
Interested in seeing what I am collecting ? Check out my camera collection:
http://collectiblend.com/Cameras/mycamprofile.php?uid=988

ph.
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Re: List lenses by brand, not by mount

Postby ph. » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:38 am

I quite agree. It should be moved away from under Zeiss- "ZIV"- Icarex and listed under Soligor with the mount and inscription noted.

p.

diser
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Re: List lenses by brand, not by mount

Postby diser » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:49 am

Sorry for such a delay in response, this is weird case. What do you think about these photos?

Zeiss_Icon_Icarex_BM_Tele_auto_2_8_135_40994859833474[1].jpg

Zeiss_Icon_Icarex_BM_Tele_auto_2_8_135_40999859833669[1].jpg

It is specifically marked as Zeiss Ikøn. Could it be a leftover from factory move? If it was in fact manufactured by other company from leftover parts, but still marked as Zeiss (yes, Kadlubek says Soligor in the comments), I'd like to keep it under ZIV category to avoid confusion during lens search, but I can add description, saying it wasn't actually manufactured by ZIV. What do you think?

diser
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Re: List lenses by brand, not by mount

Postby diser » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:55 am

The later lens by Soligor was definitely marked as such. Here is an example.
Attachments
s-l1600[1].jpg
s-l1600[1].jpg

ph.
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Re: List lenses by brand, not by mount

Postby ph. » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:19 pm

The only ZIV lens I have is for the Icarex TM. That one, the concave front element 50mm Ultron, is labelled Carl Zeiss, not Zeiss Ikon. It also has a very simple numerical marking of focal length and f number, no "mm" and "f". The other ZIV optics I have seen have had a similar style and the aperture selection ring at the rear, so from the stylistic elements, I doubt that ZIV had anything whatsoever to do with the design..

Licencing deals were done with Rollei, possibly with others. Some prototypes of new designs may well have been produced, but then , why would a few prototypea run up to the number shown on the specimen you have pictured ?

The Icarex optics were designed by Voigtländer. The Zeiss lens designs for Icarex were limited to a Distagon 25 and the Tessar 50.According to the Hartmut Thiele protypes list, these were designed and tested in Oberkochen in 1969. A number of lenses were later, (1974) designed by Zeiss for Rollei and even for the Weber. No listings for any later Icarex designs than the 1969 ones.

Another possibility could of course be that not a specific design,just the Zeiss name was licenced, so someone just replaced the front logo-ring. As you know, this was done for some of the CZJ optics sold in countries that restricted their trademark, so it is not without precedent. On the other hand, why would Zeiss risk having their name on something they did not design ?

The only recorded Japanese collaboration before the Cosina and Kyocera arrangements were with Asahi (1972).

I agree that it is easier to find the Icarex-mount Soligor if listed as it is, but a similar argument could also be used to list the myriads of Leica-mount lenses under the Leitz\Leica heading even if they never occured in Leitz\Leica catalogues.
I am by no means an expert on these matters, merely a user of interesting optics, so I suggest that you ask advice from a club like the Zeiss historical society or the author of the very exhaustive book on Zeiss cameras, mr. Bernd K. Otto, (or for a fast internet check, consult the MF-lenses forum where posters have quite wide experience of optics from the pre-digital era).


p.

diser
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Re: List lenses by brand, not by mount

Postby diser » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:10 pm

Usually I am splitting (or trying to follow this model) cameras and lenses by the name visible on the body. From time to time I may deviate from this approach, and I list the manufacturer in the brackets, or specify manufacturer in the description.

I added this in the description: "Could have been manufactured by Soligor from original Zeiss parts. Later models have Soligor name on the front ring. There are questions about origins of "Zeiss Ikon" on the front ring."

If you are OK with this, I am going to move this post to the "Camera/Lenst comment" section, and will attach it to that lens entry, so the information you provided will be visible under the lens info.


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